Help needed urgently

[by evil coke]

Well I just started year 12 (on tuesday) and I've decided the English Literature class isn't for me. So I'm going to do biology instead (when I tell my tutor tomorrow). This means I'd be taking the following subjects:

Chemistry
Biology
History
Psychology
Drama

Would the swapping of english lit for biology still make me appealing to universities offering a law degree. I'll probably end up taking chemistry, history + biology in year 13. Would this make me less appealing to law universities. I'm hoping to get AAA. Please reply ASAP. Thanks in advancehttp://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/images/smilies/smile.gif

[fraggled]

I'm not from the UK, but most Law Schools expect English classes and they like to see them.

[Kate]

Why aren't you taking A Level Law?
It's a bit silly not to when you want to go to do a Law degree :/

[Nintendus]

Why aren't you taking A Level Law?
It's a bit silly not to when you want to go to do a Law degree :/
The top unis hate it. My school won't even do it because it's not respected.

And to answer your question, the best answer is probably yes it will. Language is of utmost importance in the law and they want a good standard of writing. The top universities would probably see English lit above Biology for Law. However, biology is perfectly respectable and there are no requirements for law. So if you'll be better at it then do it, as the grade is important.

Also you've still got History, which will show you have the ability to write essays well enough.

[Kate]

Here's what the Criminology Manchester Law course accepts and doesn't:

"the School wishes to point out that it will not normally include the following subjects as part of the academic conditions of any offer made

Critical thinking
General studies
Media Studies
PE
Drama We accept A-Level Law but it is not considered to be an advantage."

[Nintendus]

Here's what the Criminology Manchester Law course accepts and doesn't:

"the School wishes to point out that it will not normally include the following subjects as part of the academic conditions of any offer made
Critical thinking
General studies
Media Studies
PE
DramaWe accept A-Level Law but it is not considered to be an advantage."
It is the general consensus that it is ill preparation for a law degree and the universities agree with this. It forms part of LSE's and Cambridge's list of subjects they dissaprove of. If it was viewed as on par with the traditional subjects like English literature, there would be no reason for them to point out that it is accepted, it would just be assumed.

[Kate]

Meh, well i think it is monumentally silly not seeing it as an advantage anyway.

And it doesn't bother me, frankly, as i plan on doing a Politics and Criminology degree at Manchester.
George is doing Law at Cambridge, no?

[by evil coke]

So biology is fine then?

[Nintendus]

Meh, well i think it is monumentally silly not seeing it as an advantage anyway.

And it doesn't bother me, frankly, as i plan on doing a Politics and Criminology degree at Manchester.
George is doing Law at Cambridge, no?
George wishes :P.


So biology is fine then?
In a nuthshell: perfectly.

[Kate]

George wishes :P.

You're clever enough for it, i hate you :(

[fraggled]

Taking biology and then going into law is like me taking programming and going into design.

[VraiCanon]

I would have thought English would have been a preferred subject over Biology tbh because law is very essay based. Then again history & pyschology are so I don't really seee it being a problem. That's a nice variety of subjects; why 5 though? That's going to be really hard work. If you're aiming for all A's I would recommend taking just 4 subjects so you can specialise more.

I take A Level Law and I'm hoping to do a law degree. It is helpful but I don't really see it being a necessity since alot of schools/colleges don't even provide Law as an A Level subject.

However how can you be so sure you want to take a law degree if you don't have experience in the subject? This is what I can't understand.

[Menace]

Literature is funnnnn.

[fraggled]

Only when I get to read about how Intel failed in creating IA64 or reading the funny affidavits from the Apple lawsuits xD

[eversosweet]

i don't know much about education in the UK but in the US english is required for the entirety of high school, and you can't even graduate without taking it every year. if you do decide to take biology and not english, make sure you talk to your school counselor to make sure you have the graduation requirements.

as to the question, if you seriously think taking english will hurt your grades and you won't be able to get an A in that class, go to biology. if you think you'll be fine in english and get the grade you want, but you just don't like it, i would stay in it anyhow. law requires a lot of writing and knowledge of english, not only written, but having the ability to be articulate when speaking as well.

[Innamorata]

He's talking about college or sixth form, not high school.

[fraggled]

It's required for most law schools in the US too.

[Nintendus]

Taking biology and then going into law is like me taking programming and going into design.
With the utmost respect, you really don't know what you're talking about.




However how can you be so sure you want to take a law degree if you don't have experience in the subject? This is what I can't understand.
You took it for a level didn't you? Any prior experience in the subject for that choice? Basically the top universities general consensus is that it's poor preperation.

[fraggled]

With the utmost respect, you really don't know what you're talking about.


With the utmost disrespect, you should learn to read moron :\. I think I admitted I wasn't from the UK in my first post, not that you are slick enough to catch that ;), but then again, yes, you are right, lawyers use Biology everyday right? It's become a big part of their opening. I mean shit, who would need English, I mean, you only have to write out legal affidavits daily, would look rather stupid if you made a mistake and another lawyer used it against you to win the case ;). However, all is well, because you took BIOLOGY xD

[Kate]

With the utmost disrespect, you should learn to read moron :\. I think I admitted I wasn't from the UK in my first post, not that you are slick enough to catch that ;), but then again, yes, you are right, lawyers use Biology everyday right? It's become a big part of their opening. I mean shit, who would need English, I mean, you only have to write out legal affidavits daily, would look rather stupid if you made a mistake and another lawyer used it against you to win the case ;). However, all is well, because you took BIOLOGY xD

:)
Like you said, but to support Georges point, the schooling system here is very different to that of the US system.

Over here, Biology and other sciences are good at upping your "points" to get into University and look rather good on your course application.
It shows you have a range of knowledge, a well rounded smart person, if you like.

Biology also looks good if you are wanting to take a Law with Criminology or other science based part of Law, such as forensics, which connect with the criminal justice system etc etc etc.

[by evil coke]

Thanks for all your input. I made the change today and now look forward to my biology lessons.

[fraggled]

:)
Like you said, but to support Georges point, the schooling system here is very different to that of the US system.


In some cases yes, but Universities are no different in Acceptance, really.



Over here, Biology and other sciences are good at upping your "points" to get into University and look rather good on your course application.
It shows you have a range of knowledge, a well rounded smart person, if you like.

They do here, but not as much as language. Language is needed, its wanted and its a super plus, versus a plus. It would be like that anywhere, tbh, because language is a key part of succession.



Biology also looks good if you are wanting to take a Law with Criminology or other science based part of Law, such as forensics, which connect with the criminal justice system etc etc etc.

Forensics has nothing to do with law, this is why every CSI officer has to work with a police officer / detective who handles the law and then this is why every police officer has to deal with a Prosecutor who is the lawyer. In most cases, the Prosecutor can do the police officers job because they are pretty much one in the same, but the prosecutor doesn't do the CSI officers job and the CSI officer doesn't do the Police officers job.

[Kate]

Law AND Criminology, not just Law, is what i said.

"Biology also looks good if you are wanting to take a Law with Criminology or other science based part of Law"

[fraggled]

Unless your country allows you to be a CSI and Prosecutor at the same time, thats just worthless. Which is why I ignored that WITH.

[Nintendus]

With the utmost disrespect, you should learn to read moron :\. I think I admitted I wasn't from the UK in my first post, not that you are slick enough to catch that ;), but then again, yes, you are right, lawyers use Biology everyday right? It's become a big part of their opening. I mean shit, who would need English, I mean, you only have to write out legal affidavits daily, would look rather stupid if you made a mistake and another lawyer used it against you to win the case ;). However, all is well, because you took BIOLOGY xD
Oh calm down old darling, there's no need to have a fit. You do not comprehend in the slightest how our education system works, and to anyone in the UK your posts simply sound foolish. There are no subjects specifically reccomended or required to study law at a university in the UK. All they require is that you study the academic subjects. They see the GCSEs in English language as forming the requirements for the course, there is no stated advantage in doing such at A level (and indeed there are plenty of people I know ho've gone Oxbridge for law with all sciences and maths). The subjects we study at a level often have little relevance to what we end up doing, we do after all do 3/4/5 of them.

If you take this ridicolous attitude that biology has no relevance, then you limit prospective law studient's a level options to about 2 choices.

[Kate]

Well maybe some people like to have a profession in one thing, and have knowledge of surrounding fields.
For example, the DA knowing the jobs of the forensic investigators well, surely this must be a helpful skill.
Or being a foreign languages teacher, and being able to teach two languages.

[Nintendus]

Unless your country allows you to be a CSI and Prosecutor at the same time, thats just worthless. Which is why I ignored that WITH.
Degrees are not neccessarily for going into the associated career. Law here as a university course is completely non-vocational, therefore it means many do the degree and take a completely different path. So the degree is not "worthless". I'm glad you feel knowledgeable enough to speak about our UK systems though, as after all, I'm sure all of us would proffess to know what we are talking about in regards to the American education system. :rolleyes:

[fraggled]

I can't even come up with a reply to that, I don't even think it qualifies for a full reply other then "WTF did you say?"

[Kate]

It was in clear English. Considering a remark was made about Georges English reading ability, this is rather hypocritical.

[*Jess*]

Broken down:
You don't need anything specific to do law.
Science is an academic subject, so its worth a lot.
Our education system is different.
A degree is counted as a way to show you have an ability to learn at a high level, and is not a career path.
Better?

and yes, the english was perfectly fluent and understandable.

[fraggled]

Well maybe some people like to have a profession in one thing, and have knowledge of surrounding fields.
For example, the DA knowing the jobs of the forensic investigators well, surely this must be a helpful skill.
Or being a foreign languages teacher, and being able to teach two languages.

1.) Your DA isn't going to care about how people do their jobs, he's going to care if they do it right, he is the DA, his job is the maintain the law. Most of the time, the DA doesn't even step into a court room, because his job is the law.

2.) ADAs (AKA Prosecutors - though in the US this is far more structured - ADA Prosecutor and then the Prosecutors, there usually is only on ADA and the rest are just Prosecutors) would be the ones who would most likely want to do this, most of time, they don't even give shit, but I do agree, it might make things a bit smoother if they have a tit bit of knowledge of the process. Though its not really something they should do electively. It's not going to help them in any sense, as they can't go and testify on their own behalf as prosecutors, they are in the end going to have to bring in a real CSI.

3.) Why would a DA, or an ADA need to teach language? They would want to learn yes, but again, this would somewhat worthless as the government hires translators most of the time. From a Domestic Laywers perspective, this would be very good, because often they are working by themselves and Linguists tend to be expensive, the last time I needed to hire one, it cost me $200 an hour. But why would a lawyer need to take criminology? Again, they can't testify in the case they are defending or prosecuting ;).


Edit:

And yes it was clearly understandable, but it was one big excuse from what I read. EVERYBODY knows Universities like to see specific things, weather they say it or not, you are dealing with a dynamic board of people who decide weather you are worthy, just because they tell you "we don't reccomend this and that" doesn't mean when it comes down it it they will look at you're application and say well he has the basics, he is well worthy of our school. :\, if that was the case, certainly my friend would have gotten Accepted with me to Universities, he did meet the requirements ;).

[Kate]

Language was just another example of different subjects placed together.
Here are some examples of courses which mix subjects, Jordon.

http://www.law.manchester.ac.uk/undergraduate/courses/course/?code=01050
- Law and Criminology

http://www.law.manchester.ac.uk/undergraduate/courses/course/?code=00282
- Law and Politics

http://www.law.manchester.ac.uk/undergraduate/courses/atoz/course/?code=06925&pg=3
- English Law with French Law

Understand what we're getting at?

[Nintendus]

And yes it was clearly understandable, but it was one big excuse from what I read. EVERYBODY knows Universities like to see specific things, weather they say it or not, you are dealing with a dynamic board of people who decide weather you are worthy, just because they tell you "we don't reccomend this and that" doesn't mean when it comes down it it they will look at you're application and say well he has the basics, he is well worthy of our school. :\, if that was the case, certainly my friend would have gotten Accepted with me to Universities, he did meet the requirements ;).
We have two Engish a levels in the UK. English language and English literature. You state that English is more applicable because you need the english skills in law. However English language is actively frowned upon, as a weak option, so can be regarded as what universities do not want to see. What the original poster was doing was english literature, which as I am sure you know is writing essays on pieces of literature, it is not about improving your language, and indeed I have friends who do badly in the language and well in literature. In these regards English literature can only be said to give him the skills to read texts and make anayllysis on them, as well as write essays. Which he also picks up in history (and can also be picked up in any other essay subject).

For law in the UK, your a level choices need only show you are an intelligent person, with the aptitude to study law. We also in the Uk have a seperate exam for students wishing to study the law at a level, called the LMAT, this tests the specific skills we require for law.

[fraggled]

Ok, I sat down with Jess and had her explain to me more what it was, and then I related it to my local education system, and apparently it's like a local college here, a 2 year degree (associates degree), and I agree, they don't give a shit what you take as long as you have an associates and the ability. It does matter to some extent. I was thinking it was a university. A real university.

[Nintendus]

Ok, I sat down with Jess and had her explain to me more what it was, and then I related it to my local education system, and apparently it's like a local college here, a 2 year degree (associates degree), and I agree, they don't give a shit what you take as long as you have an associates and the ability. It does matter to some extent. I was thinking it was a university. A real university.
You're way off :P

[*Jess*]

A-levels, i dont know what your degree things are, are what you do before your degree, they're just a formal qualification, not really a degree.
you go to a university to do a Real degree, your a-levels are just help to get into them basically.

[fraggled]

Wait god damnit, its a fuckin Bachelors of Law, and since it is, this means it is a real qualified school. So I am back to my original argument, stop being a worthless cunt and do the things that will make you good at your job. Fuck around in undergrad school, not in serious school ;). If you want to say prissy bitch courses on criminology do it when you're getting an Associates not Bachelors, and if your law schools "group" them they are worthless too :\.

Real law schools:

First-Term (Fall)


Constitutional Law I (10001). 4 units.

Contracts I (11001). 4 units.

Procedure I (12001). 4 units.

Torts I (13001). 4 units.

[*Jess*]

it doesn't mean its shit.
it means some people need support, i said some people, who perhaps can't afford stationary and books. they need more skilled workers, it stops people going on the dole too, far cheaper ;).

[fraggled]

I'm not talking about the people who need help :(, I'm talking about the people who don't want to learn and get paid to learn :|, they can lick my ass.

[Nintendus]

Wait god damnit, its a fuckin Bachelors of Law, and since it is, this means it is a real qualified school. So I am back to my original argument, stop being a worthless cunt and do the things that will make you good at your job. Fuck around in undergrad school, not in serious school ;). If you want to say prissy bitch courses on criminology do it when you're getting an Associates not Bachelors, and if your law schools "group" them they are worthless too :\.

Real law schools:

First-Term (Fall)


Constitutional Law I (10001). 4 units.

Contracts I (11001). 4 units.

Procedure I (12001). 4 units.

Torts I (13001). 4 units.
I'm an obnoxious cunt.

[*Jess*]

Wait god damnit, its a fuckin Bachelors of Law, and since it is, this means it is a real qualified school. So I am back to my original argument, stop being a worthless cunt and do the things that will make you good at your job. Fuck around in undergrad school, not in serious school ;). If you want to say prissy bitch courses on criminology do it when you're getting an Associates not Bachelors, and if your law schools "group" them they are worthless too :\.

Real law schools:

First-Term (Fall)


Constitutional Law I (10001). 4 units.

Contracts I (11001). 4 units.

Procedure I (12001). 4 units.

Torts I (13001). 4 units.



Look, its their own choice.
Our education system works differently and you have to accept that. There is nothing wrong with our law systems in education, only the best make it and thats how it has always been. Just because the schools may be better there in your eyes, whether they are or not, if you're actually good at it you don't need a fantastic school and amazing teaching to get you where you need, we rely more on self motivation as well as teaching.

Schools aren't worthless if they work differently. Oxbridge's reputation would be far lower if their degrees in such a big subject were worthless. Manchester has a pretty good reputation too.

They don't give a shit as well. some people get a degree in one thing and unless it is a really specialised job you can get a job from just having a degree, whether its irrelevant or not.

[fraggled]

Look, its their own choice.
Our education system works differently and you have to accept that. There is nothing wrong with our law systems in education, only the best make it and thats how it has always been. Just because the schools may be better there in your eyes, whether they are or not, if you're actually good at it you don't need a fantastic school and amazing teaching to get you where you need, we rely more on self motivation as well as teaching.


TBH, I don't have to accept shit, I don't live there, so its not my problem. And I don't care about the education system, I care about the educated, the ones who can't focus like they have the ability.

You don't? Damn all those job offers I sorted through 6 months ago lied :(. They all wanted degrees from super universities. One even specifically mentioned an accredited degree from Texas A&M and then another mentioned "Plus to be Alumni of New York University".



Schools aren't worthless if they work differently. Oxbridge's reputation would be far lower if their degrees in such a big subject were worthless. Manchester has a pretty good reputation too.

Yes, it's so good you hear about it like its Cambridge, Oxford, Yale or Harvard ;). Worthless would be an opinionated word, to me it is worthless, to you it might not be, not that people catch those opinionated words.

[*Jess*]

Uhm, they are the best universities but you don't exactly hear about every university do you?
The educated are the educated, there aren't that many amazing, elite, super-skilled jobs in the world, some people still have to be doctors, nurses, small business solicitors and thats what universities mainly cater for.
Good jobs aren't just the ones at the top of it, the world wouldn't run if it wasn't for the highly skilled but low status jobs.
you'd be out of a job certainly.

[fraggled]

Uhm, they are the best universities but you don't exactly hear about every university do you?

I try my hardest to know about the oddly really good ones.



The educated are the educated, there aren't that many amazing, elite, super-skilled jobs in the world, some people still have to be doctors, nurses, small business solicitors and thats what universities mainly cater for.
Good jobs aren't just the ones at the top of it, the world wouldn't run if it wasn't for the highly skilled but low status jobs.
you'd be out of a job certainly.


Everybody and their mother syndrome. Every job its super-skilled, elite and amazing, weather it be the guy who works at Mc Donalds and can get me my food fast, hot and tasting great or the guy who cooks my steaks and cooks them exactly how I like them, he is elite and he is amazing, because he took the extra steps to specialize and become great at his trade, it's how you do you're job and how well you do it, how well you learn it, how determined you are to specialize in it, you can go get a degree tomorrow, I will be proud of you yes, but you will not be elite to me until you prove to me that you are good at your job, that you love you're job and you are determined at it, and if I see somebody who wants to be a lawyer and doesn't try to apply to the most accredited schools and doesn't take the courses he knows will better him in that field, he will never be elite to me, because he already proved to be off course. In my eyes, there is no such thing as half-assing it, playing around or going off course, you either do it, and you do it right, and you do it the best you can or you don't do it at all. I'm one of the "best of the best" in my field because of the way I do my job, not because of my job.

Now you don't need to go to college, but that was an example, clearly anybody can be super bad ass at their job without a degree.

In a way I am out of a job because of everybody and their mother syndrome, I have to be the best of the best and the super elite and I have to know everything about everything related to my industry so I can claim to be better then the rest. So they know I'm better then the rest, I don't know what I know because I was paid to know it, I didn't learn it because it paid high, I learned it because I'm good at it, and I like it, as a matter of fact, I love it, and I would marry it if I could. ;), I loose an average of 20 clients a year because John and his mother build a website in front-page or built an application from a tutorial and think they are me. It doesn't hurt me, no, because I have enough clients, everybody knows this, but it hurts me in a way because John and his mother could be good, they are determined, but they took on a client that was meant for us, and then gave them work that was meant for a them. In other words, because they didn't put their best into it the work as average, and in some places n00bish. This is exactly why I don't believe in taking Criminology with Law and I don't accept the fact that some places offer them together. If you are taking two separate fields at once, how do you get to be the best in you're specific field? You have to worry about two fields. And lets face it, the average person, isn't good enough to handle two courses like that and still manage to be the best in his / her specific field.

[*Jess*]

I was saying the best of the best were the super skilled and elite. :|
I wasn't having a mother attitude, because i more than anyone think that some jobs could be done by a potato.